Photo Critiques
Anand yesterday mentioned on his comment to Camera Clubs that his best source of honest critiquing of his photography is emailing friends. He gets this neither from the internet nor from the club where he is a member.
This has been a discussion on a number of posts here such as Why Do We Photoblog? and Learning From Photoblogging? - my conclusion has been that most people are disatisfied with the feedback they receive.
On the whole most feedback I receive (and to be honest give) is rather vaccuous and of the ‘well done’ type without honest critique and suggestions for improvement or reasons why it is good. I am able to live with this though because every so often somebody (often it is Rock) makes a suggestion for improvement (also to be fair to me I do this every so often as well). The image I posted yesterday - Stowe Reflected: Bridge - is a good example of a series of useful feedback.
Perhaps the medium of the internet is not the right one for this sort of critique - I am primarily doing this to improve my craft.
Please comment with your thoughts on this topic.
September 23rd, 2005 at 6:06 am
The internet really isn’t a good place for critiques for a few reasons. The first being text based. It’s hard to convey emotion in a comment, and they can easily be taken the wrong way. I’ve had this happen before, and its not a fun place to be. The second is with photoblogs in general. Most people don’t ask for critique, and others don’t take critiquing well. People say they have thick skin, but in the end they really don’t. Photography is a personal form of expression, and an attack on a photo can feel like an attack on the person.
Emailing is a good option if you can’t talk over the phone, or chat live via some sort of messenger. First, the person truly wants some honest feedback if they email you asking for it. This way you know your comments won’t be out of line. With posting on a blog, sometimes I feel that others will take my comments wrong and I would come off looking like a jerk. There is also the possibility of a public verbal flogging. I’ve seen this happen, and the author would get quite upset or embarrassed. This problem is solved with email. Only they will see your response and have a chance to reply with more questions, or revised images for new thoughts.
I also mentioned using a chat application for critique. I do a lot of critiquing with a friend over AIM. We review each others photos after every outing, and it works quite well. This is really fast and convenient. I’ll give him a link, then ping pong back and fourth with ideas and discussion. It’s very fast and personal. I really prefer this method. It will also give you the chance to have a good conversation after the critique. I use AIM, and am willing to give out my ID to anyone who wants to chat, just send me an email. There is also the option to have a group chat. This is great for bouncing ideas off each other.
Dave
September 23rd, 2005 at 7:02 am
I too have seen the verbal flogging and it’s awful. I’ve also stopped watching cetain people’s work because they’re asses on their comments - or at least that’s how I view them. I think I thick skin, but I never get a good (mean) critique from anybody.
I don’t think my blog is the right for real critiquing. I think my best critiques have come via email. Also, I’ve found it useful if I’m printing the photo and really looking at it. Sometimes there are things that you can’t see on the photo itself (problems) until it’s printed.
I think taking a class and having critiques with each project would be superior - you would have the expert to divert the conversation from being too negative, yet you would get excellent feedback. This is what I want to do, but I’m too lazy to take a free class (my husband teaches at the Uni). They’re even offering Uni level digital photography classes now.
September 23rd, 2005 at 7:37 am
If you want comments which improve your photographic skills you need to go to school or to a photo club. You need a teacher!
It is just the same for other disciplines like music, drawing, painting, design, etc.
You can learn a bit by looking at what other people do but you will never improve a lot. There is no easy way out.
If I look at Rock’s “smoke pictures” (http://www.rskphotography.com/photoblog/index.php?showimage=141)
I just say: “wow”! If I want to do something similar I will need someone to show me how to do it. Not through the internet but with a teacher.
If Rock tells you to use a Cokin 121M or a Cokin 121 does it really helps you?
It doesn’t help me because I don’t know the basics. To understand it, you need to try all those filters and see the results.
Those things you can do in a school setting.
The internet is not suitable for comments.
I view it more and more as a social thing. Just to show that you saw the picture and that you liked it.
What can I say to experts like Rock or David Kapp? How could I comment to one of their pictures?
Of course they have pictures I don’t like. It has nothing to do with the technical aspect of the picture. It is totally subjective. I love the “candle smoke” picture and less the “In step”
http://www.rskphotography.com/photoblog/index.php?showimage=142
“In step” is a great picture but it just happens that I like it less.
Why? I don’t know!
September 23rd, 2005 at 2:07 pm
this may not work as my work computer has some odd filters some stuff gets out some doesnt. Most people comment to get their own website/blog higher up the ratings hence the standard ‘wow’ or ‘cool’ response. Most people are takers rather than givers so want to know how you did something but are not prepared to spend 10 mins telling you why a picture didnt work for them or how you might try it another way.
I dont have a website and dont blog. Initially I thought that people spend too much time and are too commited to what really amounts to vanity publishing rather than taking more photos. I am now begining to change my views and think that a good blog really can help you improve, develop a style or just provide a product that other people seem to like, which all help if you ever aim to take photos for other people either for a friend or for sale.
I would have no problem suggesting what I like or dislike about a picture the fact that one persons perfect picture is another persons nightmare is all part of the fascination of this aspect of art. Sometimes though we do need to know what the photographer intended before we can really tell you if it worked for us.
I will comment on some of your photos in time. I am new to this site and find it refreshingly honest and genuine with some excellent pics (and the odd viual dog but thats just my opinion). Keep at it.
Blogging is getting easier all the time maybe its time I got off my backside and joined in before I am the only person in the world with a camera and no web presence.
September 23rd, 2005 at 3:22 pm
First, about fifty percent of my comments are, “I like it”, “Fine shot”, “Lovely colors” or “Good tones” or some such comment. A great deal of the time that is all I think about the shot, or I just don’t have time to think much about it. I’m more or less saying, hello, how are you, got to run. I also use this type of comment when I really dislike the photograph, but I don’t really want to say so. I’m never dishonest in my comments, so I try and find something about the image that I think is strong.
I would guess that another forty percent of my comments are about how the image makes me feel. This is usually not a cop out on my part, but the truth about what was going on in my brain when I look at the image. I have this same reaction to many of the photographs of the world’s greatest photographers. I look at an image and I immediately get a big grin on my face, or I feel immense sadness or pain, or I’m transported back to a moment in my life, or reminded of somebody. I believe that if this is the overwhelming thing that I consider when I see an image that the image must be very strong. I like it when this happens. I don’t think, “How did they do that?” (maybe this thought comes later), or about the tones, shapes, exposure, lines, contrast or anything like that, I just feel. Of course I also use this type of comment to avoid criticizing the photograph. Even if in my opinion the image is poor, if I find that it hits me on some emotional level then that is the comment I will leave. This also is true if a photograph doesn’t touch me. Ian, the image you posted today is this type. There was no major technical problem with it, it just didn’t sing or speak to me. Normally I wouldn’t state this, but since you have sought out constructive comments and indeed criticisms then I feel that I’m being dishonest if I say otherwise.
The final ten percent or so of my comments are critical in nature. These comments are not always a criticism of the image, but a comment that I consider could be helpful in improving future shots. This type of comment is also used when I think the current image could be improved with a simple “fix” – an example of this type of comment is your comment Ian about the left side of my blue neon shot. I’m often so close to my own work that I don’t see the possibilities, so by applying your simple criticism I made a far stronger image. This type of comment is of course the hardest to do, takes the most time and potentially puts the commenter at risk. I seldom leave this type of comment on my first several visits, and usually only after it is requested. Most people post their images for the fun of sharing them and don’t want this type of comment, so I have to recognize this and provide only the first two types of comments mentioned above.
I never provide totally brutal criticism. There is a lot of poorly executed images posted in photoblogs. I will never tell a photoblogger that their image is garbage. We all post crap, and we all post images that somebody is not going to like. There is a major difference in the two. If I visit a photoblog and the preponderance of the images are poorly executed then I will not revisit and I will not comment.
To address Sidney’s comment about not understanding or knowing about something, all I can state is that if somebody offers a way of improving an image and you don’t understand then ask! I didn’t comment about the use of filters to show how much I know, I made the suggestion to open up another possibility. I have a good friend who has been interested in photography for only the past two years of so. He had never heard of the Cokin filter system and when introduced to it he loved it. So maybe Sidney is correct that you don’t know what Cokin 121M or 121 filters do, but you could either e-mail me to ask about them or check out Cokin’s web site or visit your local camera store; but the point being that it potentially offers you a new tool. And of course if you’re not interested then all you have to do is nothing! I also would not offer this type of suggestion to 99% of the photobloggers on the web.
Again to address Sidney – If somebody is really interested in how to do something I have found that most photographers love to teach others. If somebody wanted to know how I did the candle smoke shots I would gladly provide the details. I would of course also direct them to the two photographers who have the smoke shot technique far more refined then I do.
As to helping photographers who are supposedly more advanced then the person offering the suggestion/critique all I can do is offer the following. Bren, my wife, is not in the least bit interested in photography. She seldom picks up a camera and when she does it is a point and shoot model. So despite the fact that she knows nothing about aperture or shutter Bren is by far my harshest and best advisor. She always tells me if she likes or dislikes something and can usually tell me why. Her comments and critique have greatly improved my photography.
I agree that the internet is not the ideal environment for critiquing photographs. The fact that we are limited to low resolution images is a major problem and we usually only get a glimpse of the true image. It is also hard to have a real dialogue via a photoblog. However, despite the limitations I believe that photoblogs offer a real and viable means of improving our photography skills and art.
September 23rd, 2005 at 5:37 pm
Great topic, Ian. As you know, at the end of my posts I have begn point-blank ASKING people for suggestions on how I can do better, and I have gotten some GREAT ideas! Some suggestions I have taken, some I haven’t, some I have filed away for future use in similar situations. And for my purposes as a hobbyist photographer, that’s great. I’ve got you, Rock, and Dave all giving me pointers and I’m eating it up. And when I can, I try to offer my own suggestions when asked, or when I can tell that a photoblogger is seeking feedback.
However, most of the photoblogging I see isn’t conducted that way. In my sidebar, I have links to probably 30 or so photoblogs that I like to visit– and most of them receive “nice shot” “great colors” comments, sort of like how someone else said as a way of saying ” I was here and I looked at your picture.” Simple acknowledgment of one’s work is very valuable, but for those photographers looking for more useful critique, it is not to be found here. I used to be thrilled when I’d have 15 comments on a photo saying, “great job!” but now, when I see 3 or 4 comments, each with valuable insight onto a photo, I find it so much MORE valuable. It brings my relationship with that commenter to a different level, knowing that the commenter isn’t just glancing at my photo hoping for another hit on their own site, but that they are genuinely interested in my work and willing to help me improve my abilities.
I love the dialogue and conversations that have developed as a result of such feedback. And as I said, as a hobbyist, I’m content with that for now. If I wanted to go even farther, I would certainly want to join a class or a photo club.
September 23rd, 2005 at 6:23 pm
I am really pleased with the response to this question (and this blog as a whole) - I think it shows there is place on the web to develop discussion and for us to interact more deeply.
I agree that overall one is not going to get as good a level of feedback on the web as one might get from a knowledgable friend face to face. It does appear to me, however, that our little group is maturing somewhat with a higher level of constructive criticism - certainly a higher level of comments that are not just ‘drive by’.
It is probably true that one reaps what one sows and as I have had the courage to provide a little more critique, I have received it in kind. I am wary of upsetting new people though and there are some longer servers on our circuit who do not seem so interested in that side of things - which is just fine, we are all looking for something.
As to vanity publishing, I suspect there is a little of that in all of us and for me the blog (well the internet in general) is the only outlet for my images at present. This aspect is dwarfed though by my desire to improve my craft and to get new ideas.
SIdney - whilst I do not know the precise numbers of COkin fliters, I am sad enough to understand a lot of theory - possibly more than is good for me - I would never have thought of using a graduated ND in a horizontal plane - for me they are for darkening skies - great lesson!
I also do feel I learn a lot from viewing other images - ideas for subjects, technique or just composition and I am definite that for some shots I have changed my behaviour because of it.
Keith - nice to meet you and thank you for commenting both here and on the Photoblog, I appreciate it. I can only reccommend photoblogging - certainly it is worth a go. One of the big (positivie) surprises for me has been the level of community one can create with people one does not know in any other way and in all probability will never meet.
September 23rd, 2005 at 9:26 pm
Great topic and some very good comments here as usual.
Personally I like the concept of photoblogs offering a place for critique, but I think this would take time to build up relationships etc. otherwise there is a risk of being misunderstood. I guess for most it is a place to post work and guage reactions, sometimes 0 comments on an image tells you enough! Also, when I have offered constructive critisism in the past I feel mean! Like Rock - sometimes commenting is a way of stopping by and saying ‘hi, how are you? nice shot by the way’.
Most of the blogs I frequent offer me inspiration, ideas, new ways of thinking about images and everyday subjects, as well as seeing the different types of cameras people are using - which is great!
I started studying photography part time last year on Saturdays (new term starts tomorrow!) and this is a much better forum for sharing critique, although even then we mostly share positive feedback! That said, our tutor is of course more honest, and when he likes an image - you do feel like you have really acheived something!
Perhaps over time blogs will evolve into something that offers a forum for critique etc. I would be interested to hear more about David Kapp’s AIM tool.
Have a good weekend all!
September 24th, 2005 at 3:41 pm
Hi Ian,
This has been a great conversation to listen into. I feel ill-equipped to join in at the same level, because I definitely fall into the photo-hobbyist category. I post mostly just to ’say’ something rather than be quiet and to be out in the world experiencing it at some level rather than watching from the sidelines. (So, basically a treatment of phototherapy for me.)
On the topic of critiquing… it seems like you have developed a good, small group of people from whom you can ask for feedback, both on the technical aspects and the artistic. That level of dialogue is precious. (”Faithful are the wounds of a friend” and all that.)
If you are interested in developing a mechanism to use your blog for some structured critique, I agree with Jen about asking point-blank for the times you are seeking feedback of that sort. I am always more inclined to comment about how a photo strikes me and what it makes me think or feel at the moment.
And I do appreciate your visits to my little random site. You are one of the only ’serious’ photobloggers I spend time going to, mostly because it seems like you appreciate the views and visits from the ‘amateurs’ like me, as well as actively developing your craft. We do develop little communities of friendship and interconnectedness through this medium.
Cheers!
September 24th, 2005 at 6:19 pm
K M J - I think it is OK to continue whatever you are doing. I do take issue, however, woth the thought that you or anybody else is ill equipped to join in. Of course Rock is aprofessional and some others are too and have years of learning and experience. For me though, liking something or not and having an opinion about an image is more than enough - it is indeed possible to over analyze when simple gut feel is what drives most of us anyway and we often then try to explain it.
The group of poele who visit my blog and those who I visit (mostly overlapping to a large extent) is developing over time and the level of interaction is getting deeper all the time. Marvellous.
Thank you (I think
) for thinking me serious - I guess I am, but I am very definitely an amateur (despite having sold a few photos) and looking to learn from wherever I can - I learn a lot from Rock of course because his craft is more highly developed than most on the circuit, but I have also learned from many people one might not consider to be ’serious’ and whose work is sometimes not good at all.